1 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,600 It was 1977, and I was working as a photographer 2 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,200 on The Daily Mirror newspaper. 3 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,560 And I was doing the late shift. 4 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,120 You'd be just sitting there, on call, 5 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:32,760 waiting for anything to happen. 6 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,680 Could be parties, celebrities, 7 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,600 car crash, plane crash, murders. 8 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,280 It could be absolutely anything at all. 9 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,320 And then, quite late at night, 10 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,160 this one call had come in from a family in Enfield, 11 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:51,360 saying that weird things have been happening in their house. 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,960 Furniture had been moving around on its own. 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,520 And, of course, nobody really believed it. 14 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,720 A lot of people phone up newspapers 15 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,120 and tell you all sorts of things, 16 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,000 so we didn't know what to believe. 17 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,240 But a second call came in, where a neighbour had said that 18 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,000 the police had seen things move around the house, 19 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:13,600 and they were convinced there was 20 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:15,800 something strange happening in the house. 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,360 The local police reported seeing an armchair levitate across 22 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,160 the Hodgsons' living room. 23 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,640 It, erm, came off the floor, oh, 24 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,640 maybe a half inch, I should say, 25 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,120 and I saw it slide off to the right 26 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:37,960 about three-and-a-half to four feet 27 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:39,400 before it came to rest. 28 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,560 Erm, I checked to see whether or not it could possibly 29 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:42,720 have slid along the floor. 30 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,760 I placed a marble on the floor to see whether or not the marble 31 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,480 would go in the same direction as the chair did. 32 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:51,320 And it didn't, didn't roll at all. 33 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,280 I couldn't find an explanation at all. 34 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,520 I drove up with the reporter, Doug Bence. 35 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,520 We had no idea what we'd find when we got there. 36 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,760 We pulled up at Green Street, Enfield. 37 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:26,320 Jumped out. 38 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,160 The house looked perfectly normal. 39 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,400 Didn't look anything... anything special. 40 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:55,040 Peggy Hodgson was a mother, single mother, 41 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,160 trying to bring up a family of four on her own. 42 00:02:58,160 --> 00:02:59,560 She couldn't cope. 43 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,400 When I did see the dressing table moving, 44 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,040 I just couldn't believe it. 45 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,480 In fact, I pushed it back twice, 46 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,080 and the third time, I couldn't move it. 47 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,520 But while I was doing it and while I was in the room, 48 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:14,760 I was literally trembling, 49 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:16,560 and my mouth went completely dry 50 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,120 because I didn't really know what I was up against. 51 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:23,640 It's almost as though someone's standing there with 52 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:26,680 an invisible hand and lifting it from one place to the other. 53 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:34,560 It was decided that I would go into the house, first of all, 54 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,680 and I planted myself right in the very far corner of the kitchen. 55 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,600 Then the family came in, and... 56 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,120 ..nothing happened really. 57 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,640 That was it. Nothing at all until 58 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,640 the last child, Janet, 59 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,800 who was about 11 or 12, 60 00:03:57,800 --> 00:03:59,520 she was brought in. 61 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:09,000 Suddenly, things just took off, flew around the room 62 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:10,680 as if you fired them out of a gun. 63 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,960 You know, it was sort of marbles and LEGO bricks. 64 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:15,240 They were really moving, 65 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,120 hitting the walls, hitting windows. 66 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,320 OBJECTS WHIZZING 67 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,400 I remember Janet screaming and covering her face. 68 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,960 OBJECTS WHIZZING MARBLES ROLLING 69 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,280 She seemed to be the epicentre of everything. 70 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:34,760 DISTORTED GIRL SCREAMING 71 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,760 And then, suddenly, I got hit by a LEGO brick. 72 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,760 And it brought a lump up on my right eyebrow. 73 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,040 If it weren't for having the camera up over my face, 74 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:49,920 that force, I would've been blinded. 75 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,840 I have no idea if any of those pictures are going to come out. 76 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,360 It was quite frustrating because it was just 77 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,520 shots of the family there, 78 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,840 rather than seeing marbles whizzing across the room. 79 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,440 Looking back at it, 80 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,640 I still haven't got the faintest idea 81 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,560 of what happened in that house. 82 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,280 Britain today is on the red line. 83 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:40,600 INDISTINCT SHOUTING 84 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,680 Confusion and anxiety are everywhere. 85 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,080 SHOUTING CONTINUES 86 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,000 As people search for meaning, 87 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,520 many have become fascinated by the supernatural, 88 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,720 the occult, and the paranormal. 89 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,960 Blockbuster horror films had people fainting in the cinema. 90 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,080 Beat down Satan under our feet! 91 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,040 And we've had regular reports of hauntings and possessions. 92 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,760 The Hodgson family, from Enfield, in North London, 93 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,880 aren't getting on too well with what they believe to be a poltergeist. 94 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:23,800 A poltergeist is a ghost 95 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,720 which makes its presence known through noises. 96 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,040 Those who've studied the phenomenon 97 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,160 say it concentrates its attention on adolescent children. 98 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,480 11-year-old Janet Hodgson appears to be the focus 99 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,240 of many of the strange happenings in Green Street. 100 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,520 I was a reporter for BBC World at One 101 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,200 and World This Weekend, 102 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,800 and I was working on World This Weekend on the Saturday 103 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,440 when The Daily Mirror had this headline - 104 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,760 "The House of Strange Happenings". 105 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,480 You don't usually get kind of ghost stories 106 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,240 on the front page, do you? 107 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,880 It wasn't necessarily news in the sense that - 108 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:07,840 not hard news, anyway. 109 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:10,960 And I was threatened all day with, if nothing else happens, 110 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,160 you'll have to go and cover this ghost story in Enfield. 111 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,800 It's well known that when a reporter is sent out to a ghost story, 112 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,320 absolutely nothing happens. 113 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,200 I mean, it's really, you know, difficult to report on. 114 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,680 So, I didn't really want to do it at all. 115 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,040 But in the end, nothing else happened that day, 116 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,680 so I went out to Enfield on a Saturday evening... 117 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,920 ..and was quite sceptical and thought, 118 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:35,560 "Well, what's going to happen"? 119 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,480 I thought Mrs Hodgson seemed a very sensible woman. 120 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,120 She seemed very normal and ordinary, and down-to-Earth. 121 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,480 She had four children. 122 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,000 Johnny was ten, Billy was seven, 123 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,560 Margaret was 13, 124 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,680 and Janet was 11. 125 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,000 Mrs Hodgson was divorced, and her husband wasn't there, 126 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,560 and the family were obviously quite poor. 127 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,880 And there didn't seem anything remarkable about the family. 128 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,480 Just what was happening to them seemed remarkable. 129 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,480 At the time, I was just focused on the fact that I needed 130 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,520 to get something that could go on the programme the next day. 131 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,640 It's now about half an hour since 132 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,720 the family settled down for the night, 133 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:42,480 and Janet, who's the 11-year-old, 134 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,560 the one we've been watching most, 135 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:46,240 she now seems to be asleep. 136 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,360 She's not really moving around very much. 137 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,640 ELECTRICITY BUZZES 138 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,600 KNOCKING ECHOES 139 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:10,960 KNOCKING CONTINUES 140 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,280 KNOCKING CONTINUES 141 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:18,320 I was in the front room, 142 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,320 and it was really quite loud, 143 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,400 and quite persistent sort of knocking. 144 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:24,920 It wasn't like a knock on the door. 145 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:26,440 It was like a knock on the wall, 146 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,400 and sort of high up on the wall sometimes. 147 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,680 KNOCKING ECHOES 148 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,040 You could never tell where it was. 149 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,120 We've just heard a noise, having come downstairs. 150 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,000 We've just heard a noise upstairs. 151 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,600 And the chair which was standing by Janet's bed 152 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:04,840 appears to have moved. 153 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,840 Now the chair was by the bed, and it's now by the door. 154 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,720 Well, Janet appears to be sleeping quite peacefully. 155 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,520 Well, I'm hoping I'm not getting the microphone shaking in my hand, 156 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,080 because that was rather an unnerving experience. 157 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,000 Roslyn, you're looking fairly fresh, I have to say, 158 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,760 after that night and being up till 5.30am this morning. 159 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:40,720 Are you persuaded? 160 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,400 I think I more or less am, yes. 161 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,440 I couldn't explain what had happened that night. 162 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,560 It did all seem extremely odd. 163 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,360 And I thought there really was something strange 164 00:10:58,360 --> 00:10:59,600 going on in that house. 165 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,600 As a couple of Daily Mirror hacks, 166 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,560 you know, we were out of our depth, 167 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:15,880 so we had no idea what this was about. 168 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,840 So, we decided that the Society for Psychical Research 169 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,520 had to get involved. 170 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,640 They'd studied this sort of stuff over the years 171 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,440 in lots of different countries around the world, 172 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,520 and they knew what they were doing. 173 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:32,120 And we certainly didn't. 174 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,720 The Society for Psychical Research, 175 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,000 which was founded in the 19th century, 176 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,240 does research into a whole range of different types 177 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,320 of alleged paranormal phenomena. 178 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,360 So, this can range through the whole gamut 179 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,520 of apparitions, poltergeist, 180 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,680 spiritual mediums, 181 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:06,720 extrasensory perception. 182 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,240 Just about, you name any anomalous phenomena that you can think of, 183 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,000 and the SPR is interested in investigating it 184 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,480 in a scientific manner. 185 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:26,840 My role in the SPR is the honorary 186 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,240 archive liaison officer, 187 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,680 which means that I basically collect archive material, 188 00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:34,440 catalogue it, conserve it. 189 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:41,120 Well, this is where I keep a lot of the, er, paranormal, 190 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,640 shall we say, archive. 191 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,880 Up here, we have the Enfield box, 192 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,000 which has the items that were thrown around 193 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:52,840 in a poltergeist-like manner. 194 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,120 So, here we have the LEGO bricks. 195 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,360 And one of the first times that anything flew in the air was 196 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,440 when a piece of LEGO brick hit the photographer, Graham Morris, 197 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,640 brought up a bit of a bruise on him, 198 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,080 and with such a volition that it couldn't have just been sort of 199 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,320 chucked in the air and hit him on the head or something. 200 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:18,800 It had to be thrown very hard. 201 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:20,560 And at the time, everybody was in view. 202 00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:22,320 There were quite a few people there. 203 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:24,920 So, I don't think he ever managed to explain how, 204 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,200 other than through some paranormal force, 205 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,600 this thing managed to throw itself across the room and hit him. 206 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,400 There's posh words for this, psychokinetic energy - 207 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,680 which means things that get thrown around, basically. 208 00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:40,200 The explanations are the same as they are for all of 209 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,400 this sort of phenomena, ranging from fraud at one extreme, 210 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,720 to spirits at the other extreme, 211 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,880 and plenty of other things in between the two. 212 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,840 Fraud could have been, in an extreme circumstance, 213 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,200 somebody palming a piece of the LEGO, 214 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,000 waiting until they were pretty sure that nobody was looking, 215 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,480 and then, throwing it as hard as they could, 216 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,600 aiming it at poor old Graham, 217 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,720 it hitting him so that it brought up a bruise on him. 218 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,400 Graham didn't know what was going on, 219 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,640 so he contacted the SPR. 220 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,880 And then, the SPR contacted Maurice Grosse to say, 221 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,320 "You live relatively near" - 222 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:14,800 he lived in Muswell Hill. 223 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,120 "Would you like to go along and investigate?" 224 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,360 Maurice had not been a member of the SPR 225 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,720 before this case for very long. 226 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,800 The first job that Maurice had in the SPR 227 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,640 was actually the Enfield case. 228 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,760 My father was 20 in 1939, 229 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,720 and he joined the Royal Artillery straight away. 230 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:51,480 And in fact, he was in the expeditionary force to Dunkirk. 231 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,720 He ended as an acting captain. 232 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,760 And, at the end of the war, 233 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,000 he was in retail, designing and inventing. 234 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,600 And then, my father showed interest in psychic phenomena 235 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,160 and joined the Society for Psychic Research. 236 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,480 And, after a period of time, 237 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:19,480 he realised that the only way to really get anywhere 238 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,920 with this subject was to research it on the ground. 239 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:30,280 And he'd been badgering the secretary for a case. 240 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,200 And the secretary had got in touch with him and said, 241 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,960 "Maurice, there's something going on in Enfield, in Middlesex. 242 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,240 "Would you like to go and have a look?" 243 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,240 So, he jumps at the opportunity. 244 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,760 And he marshalled his resources, 245 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,880 jumped into his car, and went off to Enfield. 246 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,680 And there started the story. 247 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,520 I found chaos. 248 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,080 And there were a lot of very, very frightened people there, 249 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,800 so we sat down, and we talked about what was happening. 250 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,440 And I began to realise that 251 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,400 here we had a classic poltergeist case on our hands. 252 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:24,600 My father was a scientific, rational person, no-one more so. 253 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:30,360 Erm, and he would have been looking at everything 254 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,240 with a very critical eye... 255 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,360 ..learning each hour, each day, 256 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,120 and assessing each event as it came along. 257 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,920 I have actually seen myself marbles being thrown about, 258 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,920 because they'd been thrown at me. 259 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,640 I've seen the door moving backwards and forwards, 260 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,040 as though the wind was blowing it. 261 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,960 I've seen a T-shirt jump off the table onto the floor. 262 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:00,840 The door chimes on the wall, 263 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,120 I've seen them moving on their own. 264 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,640 I've also experienced the reduction of temperature. 265 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,520 Janet was the focal point of activity. 266 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,440 My father became clear about that from relatively early on. 267 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,720 His enthusiasm was unbounded here. 268 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,640 I mean, I would come back from a discotheque at 3am in the morning, 269 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:27,280 and he'd be going off to Enfield. 270 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:34,200 We have our morning debrief sessions over breakfast, 271 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,320 and out would come the tapes, 272 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,520 and he would tell me the stories, 273 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,440 the new events, the progressions. 274 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:54,920 OBJECT CLATTERS 275 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:58,360 FOOTSTEPS 276 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,600 And it is one of the extraordinary coincidences 277 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,960 that his very first case should be one of the most important cases 278 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,840 in the history of paranormal phenomenon. 279 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,920 We were there just about every night. 280 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,400 It was too fascinating not to. 281 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,000 We'd be sitting in the sitting room for hours and hours... 282 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,000 ..just waiting for something to happen. 283 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,920 And then, bang! 284 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,480 Got upstairs to find this bed that turned itself sideways, 285 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,920 and was stood up against the wall. 286 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,400 And we couldn't have done that between us, 287 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,440 and let alone children. 288 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,800 And heavy chests of drawers, 289 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,920 big pieces of furniture would move. 290 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,120 Chairs would slide across floors staying upright. 291 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:27,320 My role then was to do sort of continuity pictures. 292 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,920 So, I'd go into the house, and I'd take a picture of each room, 293 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,080 showing everything that was there. 294 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,560 And then, when something happened, 295 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,680 piece of furniture moved or whatever, 296 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,200 I'd be the first one to go back in and take a picture again. 297 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,760 Everywhere Janet went, it seemed to follow her around. 298 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,080 That was quite frightening for her. 299 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:52,360 She hated that. 300 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,640 There was just so much of it. 301 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:04,360 We were seriously worried that somebody at some point 302 00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:07,760 could get hurt, and could be badly hurt. 303 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,120 There's an old fireplace in the bedroom. 304 00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:55,880 Janet said to me, "I can hear this scraping sound." 305 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,040 And she says, "Oh, my God, the fireplace is moving." 306 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:03,360 And, all at once, the front of the fireplace lifted up, 307 00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:06,360 and it lifted right over the double bed, 308 00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:08,880 and right onto the side of the camp bed, 309 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,960 because Billy was next to me at that time. 310 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:14,880 We just sat there looking at one another. 311 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,080 We didn't know what to do. We were so scared. 312 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:24,000 A fireplace had flown across the room and almost hit Billy, 313 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,880 the seven-year-old boy, in the face. 314 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,680 It could've killed him. 315 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:38,200 The fireplace was a turning point, as to my father. 316 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,840 For the first time, it was dangerous 317 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,360 and worried him hugely. 318 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,280 Mum was beside herself. 319 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,040 Mum was trying to bring up four kids, no husband, 320 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,600 and just didn't need it, you know? 321 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,280 So, it was just awful. 322 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,040 It was just too much for her. 323 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,560 Janet couldn't get away from it, couldn't shake it off. 324 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,960 It was just always with her... 325 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:12,440 ..whatever it was. 326 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,600 As the activity gained in momentum, 327 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:36,040 it changed. 328 00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:41,920 It became more intelligent. 329 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,760 Are you a male spirit? 330 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:52,600 Knock one for no, and two for yes. 331 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:53,920 KNOCKS TWICE 332 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,440 Two. It's two. 333 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,360 You are a male spirit. 334 00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:59,680 Did you used to live in this house? 335 00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:03,320 KNOCKS TWICE You did. 336 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,920 Was it...was it more than 50 years ago? 337 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,200 KNOCKS TWICE Yes. 338 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,880 Did you...did you die in this house? 339 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,360 Did you pass on...? KNOCKS TWICE 340 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:20,160 You did pass on in this house. 341 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,320 That's when he realised he was dealing with some form of entity 342 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:34,880 that could communicate. 343 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,400 What happened next was completely unexpected 344 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:48,920 and very disturbing. 345 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,400 I want you to call out my name, 346 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,080 my complete name, Maurice...Grosse. 347 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,400 These voices came from Janet. 348 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,920 And they were very strange and gruff, and very deep, 349 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,640 like a grumpy old man. 350 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,520 Come on. Let me hear you say my name. 351 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,400 Maurice. 352 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:25,520 Maurice. 353 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,240 Maurice. 354 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,880 I thought, "Well, I've got to record that", 355 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,440 so, with Maurice Grosse, 356 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,600 I went and talked to the girl. 357 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,680 And the voice just started talking. 358 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,280 People say to me, "Where do the voices come from"? 359 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,400 I don't know. They were just there. 360 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,440 Really strange. 361 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,200 I've never known anything like it - 362 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,480 but then, that's true of most of the Enfield poltergeist. 363 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,400 I mean, I've never known anything like it before or since. 364 00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:44,560 I was a sceptic, absolutely sceptical, 365 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,440 until I stepped into the house. 366 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,080 And, at about 9pm in the evening, 367 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,440 the kids were going to bed. 368 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,600 And the kids were in the room, 369 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,040 the door was closed... 370 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:09,360 ..and almost immediately, this voice started, 371 00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:12,720 this old man's voice talking. 372 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,680 I went into the room, and I was told I had to stand 373 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,960 facing the door. 374 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,240 I said to him, to the voice, I said... 375 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,880 I want you to tell me whether you remember 376 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,640 what happened to you when you died. 377 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,920 And he said, "I'm Bill Wilkins..." 378 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,480 "..and I died 15 years ago. 379 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,960 "I'm 72 years old, 380 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,880 "and I used to live here. 381 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,680 "Just before I died, I went blind. 382 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,520 "And then, I had a haemorrhage..." 383 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,400 It had identified itself as Bill Wilkins. 384 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,040 The intellect behind the voice was not Janet's. 385 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:17,200 Can an 11-year-old child speak in a gruff old man's voice 386 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,960 for literally an hour or more, 387 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,880 and not show any sign of distress, 388 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,880 not cough, not splutter? 389 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,720 You would say, "That is impossible" - 390 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,240 and that's my position. 391 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,960 Also, the chances of Janet even knowing what a haemorrhage was 392 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,400 had to be close to zero, 393 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,680 so we're talking about language and knowledge which was outside 394 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,600 of Janet's experience or understanding. 395 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,720 Obviously, the examination of the voice 396 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,400 to try and discover what it was and where it was coming from 397 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:54,920 was of paramount importance. 398 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:01,520 They asked Janet to put some water in her mouth but not swallow, 399 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,120 and then, they put some tape over her mouth. 400 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:05,640 So, the water was in her mouth, 401 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,240 and her mouth was taped shut. 402 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,080 The voice was not coming from her. 403 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:31,800 It was coming from behind her. 404 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,600 I could see the family deteriorating 405 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,960 because the upheaval of not only 406 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:43,960 what was happening in the house, 407 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,400 but also, having all these strangers coming to your house 408 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,560 to do whatever they needed to do to prove 409 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,160 that this thing was happening. 410 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,880 Maurice Grosse was quite excited about the whole thing, 411 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:03,000 because this was suddenly taking on a different feel. 412 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,360 And Janet, who was just completely mystified, 413 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,000 wanted it to go away. 414 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,200 There she is, a 12-year-old girl 415 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,160 being possessed by a 72-year-old man 416 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,000 who died in a chair downstairs years before. 417 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,400 This was taking over her life. 418 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,000 Suddenly one night, there was this enormous scream, 419 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,840 and then, a crash. 420 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,640 Everybody rushed upstairs to see what had happened 421 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,640 and found Janet lying facedown on the floor 422 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:49,840 in a bit of a heap. 423 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:52,840 Maurice asked her what happened, 424 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,760 and she just said that there was someone there who had just 425 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,160 grabbed her and thrown her out of bed, 426 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,640 thrown her across the room. 427 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,560 So, I had to then try and photograph it somehow. 428 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,560 So I set up a camera on a tripod... 429 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,720 ..corner of the room, flash gun. 430 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,400 The camera was triggered by a cable 431 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,200 that ran down the stairs into the room below, 432 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,160 where we were all sat with a tape recorder running, 433 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,440 where we could hear what was happening live in the room. 434 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,680 And, as soon as we heard a noise, 435 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,280 I'd hit the button, it would take loads of pictures. 436 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:02,760 LOUD THUD 437 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,400 When the pictures were taken, 438 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,120 they were at least a sixth of a second between each frame. 439 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,960 She started off flat in bed normally. 440 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,920 The next shot, the covers had come away. 441 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,320 Her arms were flat by her side. 442 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,840 There is no picture of her between flat 443 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,440 and coming out of the bed. 444 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,360 There's not one picture of her climbing up 445 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,520 or moving the covers down to get her legs out, or anything. 446 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,000 She's gone from that to that. 447 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,440 She's literally flying... In a sixth of a second. 448 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,480 OFF-Was that a big distance that Janet was thrown? 449 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,720 Across a room, er, 450 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:16,800 you'd be looking at about... three or four metres. 451 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,760 That's quite a force to be able 452 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,720 to pick up a 12-year-old girl. 453 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,960 That could've done her some serious damage. 454 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,800 Maurice, as soon as he'd seen the pictures, he then said, 455 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,200 "Oh, they're levitating". 456 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:38,160 But there were lots of different theories as to why they could 457 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,000 or could not be levitation. 458 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,000 The number of people that have looked at that photograph 459 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,840 and said, "She's just jumping". 460 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,320 You know, you'll get people saying, 461 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,640 "Should her knees be flexed", and so on. 462 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,800 You know, "Would her body be in that position"? 463 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,280 But I just looked at the face, and I thought to myself, 464 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,720 "Mm, that's not someone who's playing". 465 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,520 It was reported by several people who had 466 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,560 nothing to do with the family, 467 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:27,080 that they'd seen Janet floating around the upstairs bedroom. 468 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,240 I went and interviewed two eyewitnesses, 469 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,880 one of whom was the school crossing warden. 470 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,080 The house was opposite the school. 471 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:46,040 And she had looked up and seen Janet floating around the room. 472 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,960 And she was very shaken by this, 473 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,400 but she was prepared to be interviewed about it. 474 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,600 I was standing there looking, and all of a sudden, 475 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,400 I saw the middle girl, Janet, 476 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,840 going up and down in front of the window. 477 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,480 Well, I thought that she was jumping up and down on the bed. 478 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,000 But when I looked, she was horizontal, 479 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,040 going up and down with her arms and legs going everywhere. 480 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,920 And I suppose she did this about half a dozen times, 481 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,720 and then, it stopped. 482 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,400 What was interesting about all this 483 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,320 was that people who had no skin in the game were prepared 484 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:29,720 to be interviewed about it, 485 00:34:29,720 --> 00:34:32,480 because they'd seen something so extraordinary. 486 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,400 The lollipop lady and the baker both believe 487 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,120 that they saw Janet actually in the horizontal plane, 488 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:44,680 going up and down rather, 489 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,680 than this sort of straight up and straight down, 490 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,600 almost like a triangle shape - 491 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,000 which it looks like from Graham's photographs. 492 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,120 If Janet was physically fit enough, 493 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,320 which she possibly was, then there is a possibility that 494 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,760 she could've been manufacturing this herself, 495 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,840 and this sort of correlates, if you like, 496 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,880 with The Exorcist film, which came out in 1974. 497 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,440 Remember, this was all happening in 1977, 498 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,040 and it's possible that Janet may have seen the film, 499 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,120 or seen clips of it somewhere or the other, 500 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:17,120 and that she was therefore trying to copy what was going on there. 501 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,400 There were several members of the SPR who, 502 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,520 without displaying a corporate viewpoint, as individuals, 503 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,880 felt that it was not real, the levitation. 504 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,400 And they put that into print occasionally 505 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,640 and defended their case. 506 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,920 Maurice was very upset about some members being so hostile 507 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,560 to his interpretation of what was going on. 508 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,600 And so, the controversy raged backwards and forwards. 509 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,000 I think that a few members of the SPR felt that 510 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,400 Janet's motive for levitating, 511 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:49,760 if you want to call it that, 512 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,680 was because she wanted to have fun. 513 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,320 She wanted to draw attention to herself. 514 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,360 She wanted to be special, because she was the star of the show 515 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,080 for quite a bit at the time. 516 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,480 And I think she probably enjoyed that as a break from 517 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,240 some of the miseries that she was suffering in her childhood 518 00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:04,960 and at the time of her life. 519 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,600 I had been there up to four nights a week 520 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,440 for months by the time we got around to the voices. 521 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,960 It was getting a bit like a circus by then, anyway. 522 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,120 There were so many people coming and going in the house. 523 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,240 All these experts were brought in, doctors and voice coaches, 524 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:31,360 and all sorts of people that would be there 525 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,400 to try and prove that she couldn't do this. 526 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,600 It was crazy. 527 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,600 It was like Victorians pitching up a Bedlam hospital, 528 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,400 you know, and putting up scaffolding and looking over the wall, 529 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,280 and watching them for the afternoon. 530 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,720 Janet wanted everything to go away. 531 00:36:51,720 --> 00:36:53,800 She was scared of the whole thing. 532 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,040 I was really worried that she was going to get 533 00:36:58,040 --> 00:36:59,560 seriously hurt at some point. 534 00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:02,880 It did get worse and worse, 535 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,040 and Janet did actually get quite ill. 536 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,720 She was getting quite frightened 537 00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:12,280 by feeling that things were happening to her. 538 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,120 She felt that something was pushing her around, 539 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,560 pulling her out of bed, wrapping her in a curtain 540 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:18,960 and nearly strangling her, 541 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,720 making her fall downstairs. 542 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,440 She was put in the Maudsley for two months, 543 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,120 which is a psychiatric hospital in South London. 544 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,600 I visited her a week later, 545 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,280 and she was calmer and more cheerful, 546 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:00,920 and said she was getting more sleep. 547 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,760 And I think it was good for her to get away from the house, 548 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,600 because there were a lot of demands on her. 549 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,560 The doctors gave her lots of tests, 550 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,160 and they decided that she was just a normal child. 551 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,040 There wasn't anything wrong with her. 552 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,000 And she was discharged after six weeks. 553 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,240 After Janet got back from the Maudsley, 554 00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:27,400 the activity died down. 555 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,840 It felt like it was time to go. It had run its course. 556 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:34,040 That was it. 557 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,000 Maurice was desperate to see it through to its end, 558 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,640 and found it very hard to leave it. 559 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:51,000 It turned out that he also had a daughter called Janet, 560 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:56,040 and she had died in a car crash recently, 561 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,240 you know, just before he came along to the house. 562 00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:05,360 And he did mention that he was hoping somehow that 563 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,640 it was his daughter trying to contact him. 564 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:15,880 The chap who's coming along to try and solve the whole mystery 565 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,000 was really being sort of sidetracked 566 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,320 by this unfortunate incident that had happened with his daughter. 567 00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:30,240 My sister, Janet, was two years younger than me. 568 00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:32,440 She decided she wanted to be a reporter. 569 00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:36,520 She had moved on to the Cardiff Leader - 570 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,240 and it was in Cardiff that she was killed 571 00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:40,920 in a motorcycle accident. 572 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,640 When Janet died, obviously, 573 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,040 the effect on my parents was profound. 574 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,880 For my father, he found a practical outlet. 575 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,680 He decided that he wanted to look at psychic phenomena, 576 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,040 the paranormal, in more detail. 577 00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:04,960 When he arrived at the house, he was struck by the fact that 578 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,080 one of the girls was called Janet. 579 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:12,280 He didn't give it anything other than passing mention, 580 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,400 the fact that she was called Janet. 581 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,160 A lot of people thought it was terribly important. 582 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,840 A lot of people tried to attribute to him 583 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,160 an emotional connection to the case, 584 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,720 to Janet, to what was going on - 585 00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:28,400 entirely wrongly. 586 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:29,680 It's an easy thought. 587 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,040 But it wasn't one that was borne out, 588 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,200 because at the end of the day, 589 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,480 the entity was Bill Wilkins, 590 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:38,960 not Janet Grosse. 591 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,040 This was a statement of fact. 592 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,040 So, therefore, it should be verifiable. 593 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,520 There was an extraordinary event that happens sometime later. 594 00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:57,040 My father was on a talk show on OBC, 595 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,440 and they played some of the tape. 596 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,480 They had a phone call, and they said, 597 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,840 "A gentleman wants to speak to you. 598 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,560 "He says it's important." So, they put him on, and he said, 599 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,640 "Well, I know that voice. 600 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,040 "That was my father, Bill Wilkins." 601 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,240 He did live in that house, 602 00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:34,080 went blind, had a haemorrhage, died downstairs, 603 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:38,120 and he was buried in a cemetery down the road. 604 00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:44,400 "Treasured memories of dear husband and father, 605 00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:49,760 "William Charles Wilkins, died 20th June, 1963." 606 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,920 Do I believe in ghosts? 607 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:00,960 It's hard to say no... 608 00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,640 ..because I've had a conversation with Bill Wilkins, who's dead. 609 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,200 It opens the door for such a question... 610 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,080 ..and, as a result, I can't close it. 611 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,360 The Enfield tapes are in that box. 612 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,400 Those are the original reel-to-reels, 613 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,240 and these are the Enfield cassette tapes 614 00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:43,240 that belonged to Maurice Grosse. 615 00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:45,400 So, they're all in those boxes there. 616 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,880 So, these are the recordings that Maurice made of just about all 617 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,080 the phenomena that occurred there 618 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:57,200 from an auditory viewpoint between 1977 and 1979. 619 00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,400 OFF-That's a long time. Yeah. 620 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:00,920 Have you listened to all of it? 621 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,160 I've listened to all of the recordings twice. 622 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,480 I would say hundreds of hours, and approaching thousands of hours 623 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,120 have been spent listening to it. 624 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,320 I'm not happy with the voice at all, 625 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,080 because I think that it doesn't fit with me. 626 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,040 I don't like the sort of things it was coming out with. 627 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,960 A lot of the time it wanted to - it swore a lot of the time, 628 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,320 very bad swearing constantly, 629 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,080 as if somebody is allowed to swear 630 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,160 because they're not who they really are. 631 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,480 So, they can swear and get away with it because, 632 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,360 "It's not me swearing, Mummy. 633 00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,440 "It's the voice swearing." 634 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,040 My overall thoughts about the case in Enfield are that 635 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,480 I think that there was more playing about going on 636 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,200 than Maurice believed there was, 637 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,120 but I don't think it was all playing about. 638 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,440 The incidents that I think, from my own viewpoint, 639 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,760 have the most credit are things where things appeared on tape, 640 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,440 so you could hear them - alas, you couldn't see them - 641 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,840 but you could hear them, you could hear the reactions of the people, 642 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,160 and you thought, "Well, there's something happening there 643 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,720 "that just doesn't fit". 644 00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:11,880 I do think some of the activities that occurred there 645 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,760 were beyond our normal senses, 646 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,720 and therefore, needing to be investigated more. 647 00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:20,880 I never want to do anything like this ever again, 648 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,560 because it was very disturbing. 649 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,400 It was really worrying. 650 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,440 It was dangerous and difficult, 651 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,440 and you didn't know what was happening. 652 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,640 And, while it was extremely interesting 653 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,600 to record it as an observer, 654 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,040 it was very, very disturbing. 655 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:39,760 I don't mention it. 656 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,200 I don't tell anyone I know. 657 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,000 You know, I haven't told my wife. 658 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,560 I hadn't told my daughters. 659 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:50,320 I haven't told anyone, really, 660 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,040 because they wouldn't believe you. 661 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,920 If you told them what happened, they'd just think you're mad. 662 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,200 It's too strange. 663 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,080 People can't get it into their heads. 664 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:07,800 45 years later, I'm no closer now to knowing as I was on day one 665 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,360 when I walked into the place.